Gorean Harshness... a discussion
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I am posting this as a discussion for all to partake.. which would be geat if both free and slave could have a discussion without it getting...nasty per say.
Recently I herd of a situation where a Free Man was punishing a slave, and a Free woman, as she felt it was 'too harsh'. While Gor is a online fantasy world, it is natural that what we feel in real life as unnaceptible would be considered medocre in terms of punishment (example, a free mans foot on a slave's neck as punishment).
What are your thoughts.. should we continue to strive to rp things as were in the books (as much as possible), do people that rp gor fully understand the harshness of it?, do we accept responcibility for our actions and consequences to our actions?
I have included some quotes of supporting reference for such from the books to aid in this discussion.
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Slaves---
"One after another had raped and beaten me, and thrown me to the next. I was handed about as an object. Fierce was the discipline to which they subjected me. Though I wept for mercy, and cried out, none gave ear; no consideration nor lenience was shown to the piteous slave girl in their power. Then, strangely, late in this abuse, the event occurred, which even now troubled me. I lay on my back, weeping, my head bound in the blanket, thrashing and squirming, struck, held, unable to withdraw from, helpless to withstand the plunging discipline of the brute to whom I had been last thrown, and it had occurred. I suddenly felt an indescribable sensation. First, it seemed to me, incredibly, that this was fitting, what was being done to me; I had been proud and vain before men; what did I, truly, expect men, such men, men on a world such as this, to do about that? As his force struck me, I felt, strangely, "Be disciplined, Woman." I was half choked in the hood. Then, to my amazement, I welcomed the abuse I felt.There was, beyond its sense of fittingness, seeing that I, a woman, had displeased strong males, and must thus be punished, a sense of profound complementarity; the abuse, if he chose, was simply his to give, and mine to bear; he was a man, I was a woman; he was dominant; I was not; it was his to rule, mine to submit. I experienced then, degraded and abused though I was, with a flood of elation, primitive organic, animal, primate complementarity, the complementarity of man and woman, the complementarity beyond mythology and rhetoric, the complementarity of he who takes and she who is taken, of he who has, and owns, and of she whom he has, whom he owns, and makes his. " Slave Girl of Gor, p. 94-95
"In this punishment, the girl clothed or unclothed, is bound tightly to an oar, hands behind her, her head down, toward the blade. When the oar lifts from the water she gasps for breath, only in another moment to be submerged again. A recalcitrant girl may be kept on the oar for hours. There is also, however, some danger in this, for sea sleen and the white sharks of the north occasionally attempt to tear such a girl from the oar. When food is low, it is not unknown for the men of Torvaldsland to use a bond-maid, if one is available on the ship, for bait in such a manner. The least pleasing girl is always used. " Marauders of Gor, p.66
"'Cut off her feet,” said Kamchak, “and her nose and ears, and blind her in one eye---then release her to live as she can among the wagons.” Nomads of Gor, p. 167
"'Penalty brands,' she said. 'They are tiny, but clearly visible. There are various such brands. There is one for lying, and another for stealing." Captive of Gor, p. 289
"His right hand, in a backhand blow, lashed forth, fierce and powerful, striking her from her knees to her side on the tiles. She rose to her hands and knees and, blood at her mouth, regarded him, disbelievingly. "Must a command be repeated?" he inquired. Swiftly she tore away the slave tunic, stripping herself." Guardsmen of Gor, p.257
Free Women
If found guilty in the court of the arsenal, the male thief would be sentenced, for a week to a year, to hard labor in the arsenal or on the wharves; the female thief would be sentenced to service, for a week to a year, in a straw-strewn cell in one of Port Kar's penal brothels." Hunters of Gor, p. 304
"'Her ear was notched.'" Rim and Thurnock laughed. 'A thief,' said Thurnock.'" Hunters of Gor, p. 47
"In some cities an unveiled free woman is susceptible to being taken into custody by guardsmen, veiled, by force if necessary, and publicly conducted back to her home. Indeed, in some cities she is marched back to her home stripped, except for the face veil, which has been put on her. In these cases a crowd usually follows, to see what home it is that she is to be returned. Repeated offenses in such a city is usually result in the enslavement of the female." Players of Gor, p.125
Lady Claudia shuddered. In such an impalement, the female is usually simply set upon the spear. It is not necessary to bind them, as, straightened, they cannot reach the spear nor obtain any leverage for removing themselves from it. They are held upon it, helplessly, by their own weight.Usually such a fate is visited only upon a free woman. It is thought that it gives them time to consider and repent their ways. A slave girl, on the other hand, would be more likely,, like meat, to be thrown to sleen." Renegades of Gor, p. 223-224
"I wished that I were a slave, that I might have a chance for life, that I might have an opportunity to convince a master somehow, in any way possible, that I might be worth sparing. But, I was a free woman and would be subjected to the cold and inhuman mercies of the law. I was being transported to Argentum for impalement." Kajira of Gor, p.19
Free Men---
"'If he should kill me, see then that he dies a lengthy, unpleasant death.' "Yes," said more than one, almost eagerly. As with most Goreans, they did not much care for traitors." Prize of Gor, p. 1099
"A man who refused to practice his livelihood or strove to alter status without the consent of the Council of High Castes was, by definition, an outlaw andsubject to impalement." Tarnsman of Gor, p. 45-46
"The stake was some ten feet in height, and some four inches in diameter. It had been wedged between rocks and braced with stones. Its point was roughly sharpened, probably with an adz. This point had been entered in the victim's back and thrust through with great force. It emerged from the belly, and protruded some two feet above the body. "Perhaps that is a spy, " I said. "More likely it is a straggler or a deserter," said the driver." Mercenaries of Gor, p.40
"The death would not be a pleasant one. Bound helplessly, without food or water, my own body would torture me by its weight dragging on the hand and ankle ropes, suspended a few inches above the roiling, muddy surface under the fiery sun. I knew that I would not, some days hence, reach the delta of the Vosk and the cities in the delta except perhaps as a bound corpse, withered by exposure and the lack of water. Indeed, it was unlikely my body would reach the delta at all. It was far more likely that one of the water lizards of the Vosk or one of the great hook-beaked turtles of the river would seize my body and drag it and the frame under the water, destroying me in the mud below. There was also the chance that a wild tarn might swoop down and feed on the helpless living morsel fastened to that degrading frame. Of one thing I was certain – there would be no human assistance or even pity, for the poor wretches on the frames are none but villains, betrayers, and blasphemers against the Priest-Kings, and it is a sacrilegious act even to consider terminating the sufferings." Tarnsman of Gor, p. 110
Comments
60 comments on this post.
Honestly, I think this is part of what's been lacking in today's Gor. When I first started back in the days of MSN, I remember being told "Don't go to Gor. They will eat you alive." And yes. If you chose to be a slave, you behaved as a slave who strove to be pleasing in all things or your life in Gor was very short. Free women also behaved in accordance with the role they chose and within the limits the men in their lives set for them. (continued....
I think in that regard it is more difficult now because there are so few family relationships in place, either by kin or by blood, so many of the women now really have no man to set those limits, except perhaps the head of the home if they are online frequently enough. As a result, many free women have become a little too free.
But I'd also daresay the men were somewhat limited to, except their limit was honor. Gor was harsh even for them, but in the days before they (continued...)
recognized what would be seen as honorable or dishonorable and make challenges in the form of honor matches or death matches. And I'm not saying that men today don't recognize the difference either, but for everyone involved there was role play that really got at the heart of Gor: its beauty, its wildness, its respect for life, and its harsh realities. That's what's missing. Thank you for bringing this up, Bianciella. I'm really looking forward to what others have to say as well. (done)
I wonder... if just maybe... all of us Goreans who want to enjoy realistic Gorean Roleplay, harshness and all could agree to just for a short time to try it out and could forget for a bit what homes they belong to and roleplay all as ONE city, of course not one already in use as it is an experiment. Vote three men in charge & the rest of us obey the set rules & go for it, no holds barred, and no running from the scariness of situation. It's a good idea, but I honestly doubt it would happen.
Further thinking after going over a couple discussions with a couple slaves and a few Free in weeks past is not that they fear the harshness Gor can be, but how hard it is to 8f owned follow the orders of One in roleplay they find in time to be crazy & full of contradictions out of roleplay, and the Free say it is hard to follow City rules of Leaders not there or who do not follow them, themselves. Both points I truly get, but I also come to understand lines have to be set & not crossed.
Thanks for the morning think session, now off to reality and the workforce I go
Whether those that role-play Gor fully understand the harshness of it is a thought provoking question. It is easy to do harsh things, but do we understand from a Gorean point of view when and especially why to be harsh, and what doing so is hoped to achieve. Do some that role-play Gor substitute brutality for harshness through either failing to understand or choosing to ignore the difference between the two.
I think some are harsh or brutal because they only know harshness or brutality. Hell, what do I know? I'm hot, tired, my knee really hurts and the sun is in my eyes.
I think some are harsh and brutal because they know in the real world they can't be so here anything goes but who knows what goes thru the mind of one being Free or slave. ( passes Thiery a cold compress for his knee )
Further to what Àirlia talked of. Aneesha raised this idea some years ago and We had a discussion in Helisto this evening and the consensus was that a combined Gor room that A/all in Gor attended twice a month and in which A/all played T/their roles - initially at least without an HoC or even a location on Gor - would be an initiative worth exploring, What do O/others think of that idea??
Here is my thoughts, I think we put too much of real life into the role play. I think we have slaves who are submissive by nature but when treated as a slave in gor, its considered abuse. So they take that to the extreme. I think many submissives have been in abusive relationships and therefore when its brought out to the harshness of Gor, its too hard to handle emotionally. Yes emotions get involved in r/p Gor, it does for everyone. You start to develop true feelings for those around. ....
I know for myself as a FW, I know they do not like slaves. They are jealous of slaves because of the attentions they receive of men. This being said, a FW would not pamper or pet or give out gifts to slaves as it has in the world of r/p gor. They would be firm, strong, and direct with slaves. Free Men would cherish their property, but they would also expect perfection. Now a days I really think people are fearful of losing the r/per, or hurting feelings. To beat a slave or a FW.......
there would be guilt that would settle inside the person behind the screen. I think this is how Gor has become soft. I recall when I first went to Gor, I was told to sit and watch, learn. I wasn't allowed to talk or move. Just watch. If I wanted answers, I had to ask privately. Then when I was given the time to interact, I was told to be perfect. No typos...my words had to flow. It was harsh. If I made a typo, it was followed with ))...it was followed with a discipline then a booting.
Come back when you can learn to be less lazy. I recall that I was scared to enter a Gorean room. Fearful of disappointing myself, not those around me. A lot of self direction and soul searching. Those were the harsh times of Gor for me. Today, I believe that has become lax because there aren't as many around, so lets soften it up to keep people here. I was beaten as a FW in Lydius. Did I run, nope. I took it, I r/ped it, and I reacted in anger to those who did it. But I upheld my end...
I will uphold every single part of my character to the fullest. From a beating to death. It is how I have learned and been taught in what Gor is. Accountablity as one spoke on in another place, I am the only one who can be accountable for my own actions. And if this means, put to the post and beat, then I will uphold it as a role player. Did I the person behind the screen react, you betcha. I cried cause it bothered me the r/per to be shamed in such a manner, but I overcame it, grew stronger
BTW, I hate that you can't make longer posts and you have to break them up. Plus, the ))) was meant, you couldn't place ))) behind a typo, you had to retype it and second time it was done correctly or you were disciplined. Definitely a different type of Gor.
Gor is harsh yes and i agree with most points raised here.people know what they are coming into when they roleplay Gor,if not then they have learned the basics of its culture,,as for a room for Gor ,well better would be the meet and greets that Judas and myself started off,so we can discuss Gor and could even have some roleplay,when its in different Homes that would help learn different ways of Citys and cultures within the world of Gor
are gorean slaves accountable for their actions? I for one was labelled a "princess" slave, people looked down on how I acted, my behaviours, my character yet it was never truly me. I was obeying, following commands and laws laid down by my Owner. was it my choice to behave in such a manner? no, it wasn't. I didn't choose who I served, who punished me, where I went and who I interacted with, it was decided for me by another person with their own agenda and reasons which I never questioned
i was a slave, i did as was demanded of me without question. i was hounded, treated poorly and harshly because of this, many because they say this as my actions and my accountability. i didn't whine or bitch about it, i was focused on the reason i was here at that particular moment of that particular time, my Owner, and his wishes of me. i got on with it and continued my rp of my character, a slave. Looking back now, i probably should have kicked up a fuss, been a bit more assertive
but i wasn't and i have accountability for that side of it. People were not treating me harshly because it was Gor, they used that excuse when in all reality, it was because they, as people behind the screen didn't like something they saw, which as human beings we are all guilty of from time to time. Within Gor i accept the consequences for my actions, good or bad and suck it up in the name of my character when i do something out with what my Owner expects
so if i make a mistake in persay, another home, my Owner demands only they can punish me, does that accountability lose strength knowing i can do as i please and no punishment follows? personally i see my accountability as being a slave, being pleasing, bringing pride to my Owner and being a person who is proud to be here on Gor and accepting my place as a slave, accountable for my actions or moreso, my words typed.
Just a note ..tulaa speaks of her former owner not Me
That is a very good question actually, tulaa. Are Gorean slaves accountable for their actions? Personally I would argue they are because even though the framework for which they should be allowed to operate should be defined by their owner, the follow through of those actions come down to the slave in question and his or her ability to either follow instruction or choose not to. Personally, I wouldn't give a rats ass if your profile said you couldn't be punished, if you were in a place where ..
Through your own actions you had done something that warranted punishment then you would be punished, likewise if you did something that deserved death you would be killed and then said owner could pick it up direct with me. Personally I consider all of that can't be x,y and z to be a complete onlinism because, quite frankly, it would have only been fear of what the come back would have been that would have stayed a frees hand, or an agreement with said owner but that would obviously been ...
The minority of people. I completely agree with you that people bring reality into RP from time to time and let it influence their decisions, not all may I add, and I don't think tarnishing everyone with that brush is appropriate either as there are those who would treat a slave like a slave should be treated, which may be perceived by harsh or brutal by those looking in from the outside, but it may well be that level of discipline that is required for that particular slave. A lot of this all ..
Comes down to choice. As a FM of Gor I can choose to do as I please, as a Warrior I do that within the warrior codes and I will be damned if anyone tries to tell Me what I should or not do within RP. As a slave this is pretty much the exact opposite where the burden of choice should be completely removed. And a FW is probably somewhere in between the two, leaning one way or the other depending on their personality. I think many people should remember their place in Gorean RP, their standing ..
Based on role and caste and how they fit into a bigger picture that can and will influence their own experiences moving forward. I applaud your post, tulaa, as an insight into the mindset, and the honesty within and can simply reiterate the same thing .. Gor can be a cold, harsh, brutal place and the way each of us behaves will determine if it is harsher, or a more pleasant experience.
Regarding tulaas post,as i see it she did what a true loyal slave would do and thag is to obey her owners wishes ,no slave can be looked down upon with that ,,its down to the owner to face any loss of respect or Honor should said restrictions cause drama
Fully agree with you
Interesting range of comments on the subject, well done tulaa for injecting a slaves views of harshness and accountability within Gor. I agree with mostly all that has been said so far (I must be getting agreeable in my old age hah). I see a slaves accountability to not only her Owner to be within the boundaries they set but within the wider scope of rp and Gor, they are after all, a reflection on their Owner. If any of my slaves act out of line then I expect the Free involved to punish them
within whatever scale they deem apt for the crime and the slave better believe that when the Free is done with them, they have Me to deal with and it wont be pretty. With that said, there are Free out there in the mix who have their slaves so wrapped up in restrictions, do's, dont's, maybe you shouldnt's that slaves cannot be slaves and cannot be treated as slaves, they are cuddly oozy toys who are put on a shelf for when their Owner wants some hokey pokey and otherwise have no purpose.
Those who fear their slave crying and leaving them if punished, want to be taking a good harsh look at themselves as Dominants and wondering if they are in the right place or indeed character. Slaves do not rule a Frees' actions nor make the decisions although looking around, hard to believe. If you are scared you wont get your next BJ or whatever else floats yer boat from a slave making demands on you, time to hang up the big boy or girl panties and come visit the Lair, we can sort it for you!
..i agree with most of what has been posted .. tulaa well said .my char is a yellow knife and spunky . wild but respectful too . as a slave i do as commanded by Any Free and if not pleasing then i full expect whatever punishment is given . yes i have feelings behind the screen but i normally speak about those in private where to me. They belong .im not saying dont have feelings or be a robot cookie cutter slave cause lord knows the girls of the lair are all unique and fun in their own way but (c
) have seen recently a slave ignore a Warrior and a Free Woman . i sat behind the screen im shock ...i wouldnt ever think . ever to ignore a free i would be afraid of the Frees reaction . i know if i mess up i get it from.that free and then my owners . tis the way it is and honestly if i cant handle.it i shouldnt be a slave . i know what rping a slave can be and how harsh it.can be and how beautiful it can be . gor is harsh and beautiful . ashoge for listening *scampers up into some trees*
Sorry for typos typing from my phone))
Great posts everyone!!! I think this is a great discussion so far!
It would be better if we had pastries though.
What appeals to me about Gor is that it is a primal place where Men are the dominate providers. They are strong and fierce and women, free and slave, are here to support them, not hinder them. Gor is a place where my mind can escape from the pressures of a very demanding real life where I work full-time, am a full-time student, and caretaker of an elderly parent. (Continued....)
When I first started roleplaying in Gor, I made what I thought was a horrible faux paus. Sensing my frustration, a very wise warrior gave me this advice. Remember, Gor is truly only a game and you need to play it as such. I took responsibility for my actions back then and I learned to play the game by reading the books. I accept the fact that my character may be enslaved within a man's grasp. I accept that fact that my character may be killed. (Continued...)
You have to learn the rules of the game before you can truly play it. The rules of Gor are brutal and you need to accept that fact before you even begin to play the game because if not you are in for a very miserable time. Gor is primal, Gor is harsh, yet there is a beauty in Gor that cannot be defined in words. It's exhilarating and liberating once you truly grasp it and play the game well. ~ Kyri
Talarius: Regarding Your suggestion, would the "one size fits all room be a hold, village, city? Mainland or island? Advanced or not so much in technology? Castes or no castes? And when Ya say everyone would practice their caste, what happens if ALL get together and half just sit about? Is there a penalty or learning ops available? If there is no governmental system, who would enforce order? (Respectfully queried) ~ Penelope Z.
Thanks for picking up on this one Pen. Rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one in the blogs on this topic.
what is considered harsh for a FM putting a boot on a slave neck is it like 10 min or 15 min maybe 20min is that considered harsh or is that consider easy what should be the time a FM or FW puts a boot on a slave neck how long do you leave it there is there a standared in this or is it just fun to do because you can and what is consided harsh to each it is diffent but what is the time limt to leave a boot on a slave neck who knows. shugs
the time a Free does anything is up to them..is it harsh you ask? well just think ....This is Gor and its a Harsh place .so we cant set times to do something and consider it to harsh ,thats up to the Free /owner of the slave and its dependant on how they have displeased the Free/owner as to how long the boot is on neck or whatever they are doing to the slave ....
i was asked to respond to this post, and my Owner has given me permission so hopefully what i say will end up making sense. the original blog post was about an incident that happened with me, i had spoken out of turn and i was quickly corrected on it. i was reminded of my place by a Gorean Master, One that took the time to correct me, remind me when and what was appropriate at that time. i never once thought of it as too harsh or cruel or anything like that at all. ~cont~...
i was grateful for Him for taking the time to correct me, a slave, and reminding me that it is not always the right time to say something or that it should have even been said at all. Free dont have to correct us, They dont have to spend Their time reminding us of what our role is in all of this, we, well i would assume most of us that are slaves on Gor, know what our role is; and yet He took the time to help me by using a punishment that got the point across rather quickly to me. ~cont~...
i dont believe there is anywhere within the books that it states a slave can only be punished for x amount of time and then it is considered harsh. i'm a slave, and a Gorean one at that, i am not the one in control. The Free are. And really, i think that one persons perception of harsh will be completely different from anothers. i like that i was corrected, i like that He put His foot down with me and continues to do so making it clear to me what is not acceptable by Him. ~cont~...
Gor is getting softer already, in so many ways...it's nice to feel Gor again. i know that i didnt come to Gor to have an easy life simply because i'm a slave...i came and continue to come to gor to have the life of a slave and all that entails. Thank You Master, for correcting me that night, and thank You Mistress Bianciella for the discussion that was able to come of this.
~sariah, owned slave of Dahna~
posted with Her permission
Excellent post, sariah!
thank You Mistress
Well said sariah!
Thank You Mistress
Literate slaves!! What's the Counter Earth coming to?
Nice post by the way.
thank You Master!
I am proud of your words Mine. Very well said.
thank You Mistress
Gor is a harsh world and that's what a lot of folks forgot it is a place that has many carnivores, it has weapons, and you can get hurt or killed, so is earth, you get up every day and drive a 4000 pound machine on wheels, you operate equipment , you expose yourself to millions of germs, seems to me that r/p is safer than r/l ........ just my two coppers worth.
the world of Gor is diminishing in Buzzen. This one, in her humble opinion, thinks A/all should work together,try to forget past differences and work together to build it back to the way it was
its a hard thing to do when there are those who do not know nor care as to how r/ping gor should be..there is always those who have hidden and none gorean agendas in there minds and use this place to there own ends...and then there are those who allow such to happen and are scared to say or do anything lest they upset the one with the agenda...this is whats wrong with Gor r/p...A/all should r/p Gor and Gor only as it should be done and dont pander to those who cant or wont r/p the correct way.
and we should always remember that this is just r/p ,its not real and whatever happens is nothing personal nor is it an attack on the person behind the screen..its fantasy period and we should not forget that